I have a confession to make. I haven’t read a novel in a while. I’m busy and my time is absorbed in reading all those student compositions. So to alleviate the guilt and since I was already on the internet (reading your posts and the compositions my students submit in their dropbox), I googled some screenplays of some memorable movies. Amazingly, they are almost all out there with just a simple click of the mouse. A few are available for purchase. I can read a whole screenplay in about 30 minutes, longer if I search a memorable line or just reflect on the fact “I didn’t catch that when I watched the movie.”
Then (remember…because I was already on the internet) I googled some articles and posts about screenplay writing. I have discovered that screenplays are about 120 pages in length. Each page represents about a minute on the screen. It was in article after article about screenplay writing I discovered that one of the most important pages a screenwriter must finesse is page 17–also, translated as the 17th minute of the movie. On page 17 the author must establish the point of no return, the moment when everything that was status quo changes and the action has to move forward.
So I did a little investigation and here is what I found on page 17 of the following movie scripts.
1. I went to a movie listed among the top movies ever made, a movie that for its time won numerous Academy Awards, Citizen Kane.On p. 17, Thatcher reveals that Mrs. Kane gave him charge of her son Charles Foster Kane. A child handed over to a businessman, leaving his home forever, bound for a city he doesn’t know, sent off by his mother, now that is a defining moment. Nothing would be the same for Charles Foster Kane from that moment on. Screenwriters: Herman Mankiewicz and Orson Welles
2. On p. 17 of Gone With the Wind, we get a sense of Scarlett O’Hara’s spirited nature (“Flame in Scarlett’s eyes.”) We watch Scarlett and Rhett Butler dance the night away and on the same page, he presents her with a bonnet from Paris. In these two scenes we see Scarlett may not be destined to the life as a widow. Screenwriter: Sidney Howard based on the book by Margaret Mitchell
3. At moment 17 of The Godfatherwe see Kay speaking with Michael at a wedding. Curious about some men talking among themselves, Michael explains they are going to ask his father for a favor. According to him, “they better get it right” and he informs Kay that no “Sicilian will refuse a request made on his daughter’s wedding day.” Hence the wedding scene is a point of no return, the moment in time when the audience/reader awaits the nature of the strange men’s request. Screenwriters: Mario Puzo and Francis Ford Coppola
4. In the violent and action-filled movie and among my husband’s favorites,Gran Torino, this is what I read on p. 17. “Tao looks at the sub-machine gun cradled by the Hmong gangbanger in the back seat. Smokie takes this all in. He looks down the street and sees that in a half block, Tao will have to pass a group of Latino gangbanger types.” Every member in the audience has to hold their breath knowing and wondering at what moment will the bullets of that sub-machine gun meet those gang members? How will Tao penetrate that line of hoods? No, the neighborhood is not peaceful at all. Screenwriter: Nick Schenk
5. In one of my favorite chick flicks of all time You’ve Got Mail Kathleen reveals to Christina on p. 17 that she’s developing a relationship with someone online via e-mail. There is mention of cybersex to which the horrified Kathleen insists it’s not like that. The tension and anticipation of what will come of this online relationship is laid out here on this page, in this single moment of the film. Screenwriters: Nora and Delia Ephron based on the play Parfumerie by Miklós László
Are you wondering if your favorite script, lines, scenes are out there to be read, not viewed? Click away and find out. What is on p. 17? For scrolling scripts, the ones that aren’t paged, you will need to copy and paste into Word to find p. 17.
That is fascinating! This should be in every course on screenwriting ever written!
I couldn’t quote any specific person as many pointed to this. I cannot ascertain yet who established this. I’m very naive about screenwriting, but still this seemed to be such an interesting piece of information. I’m sure those in the know, a screenwriting professor definitely already know this. I was curious so clicked away to find these award winning screenplays follow the formula. I agree, it was a fascinating trail.
Very interesting! I have to wonder if, in real life, we have those moments showing the “point of no return, the moment when everything that was status quo changes and the action has to move forward” on our own page 17 – age 17. Good food for thought on that,huh?
I absolutely love your interpretation! And, I think a great post in the making would be to pinpoint our own page 17 as you suggest. You are so wise and down to earth! Love the metaphor you have pointed out.
I do think it would make for interesting posts. Maybe we’re onto something here!
You’ve just cracked open a whole new world! I feel like I am at the top of a very long staircase that you’ve found existed behind a hidden wall … ooh, to take the first step, yes I will 🙂
MJ
Oh no! First, Pinterest (but I know you’re already doing that) and now screenplays! It’s really fun and I have enjoyed all the reads. Let me/us know if you find your favorites. Did you read mama’s comment?
I will .. and yes I read her comment and know where the page 17 is in my life 🙂 very thoughtful & astute observations she offered.
MJ
With your computer skills MJ, you may just may crack open some other doors. 🙂
This is fascinating Georgette! There aren’t a lot of people who would be entertained by following this thread to gather this info ~ I am one of them and I appreciate all of the groundwork you’ve laid. My thought is, watching for the 17 minute mark in a film itself… now I’ll have 2 things to time. There is a website you can go to where you type in the title of a film and it will tell you the opportune moments to go to the bathroom without missing critical parts of the movie. Note to self: take a stopwatch to the movies!
What can I say? I felt like a detective confirming the big clue. I had to find out for myself. 🙂
interesting tidbit for the movie industry! very cool.
(as for the snake, i think it was a water moccasin.)
I love learning “stuff” I never knew before. Just had to check it out.
Re: the snake…Oh my goodness, perhaps it’s a good habit to wear boots in the yard, you barefoot girl. But I know your eyes are always open.
I’m not much of a film buff, and don’t enjoy reading screen plays at all – isn’t that funny? I’ve read exactly two in my life, and those only halfway.
But I love the page 17 business, and the suggestion that our own lives have a dramatic shape that makes “page 17 years” possible. I can think of three “point of no return” moments in my own life – in 1975, 1987 and 1990. It’s interesting that they’re clustered in mid-life. It’s equally interesting that a few years that “should” have been turning points, weren’t.
These strange “number things” pop up here and there. The first thing I thought of while reading your post was the “27s Club” – the group of musicians who’ve died at 27 years of age. Bluesman Robert Johnson was the first, and the group includes Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Jim Morrison, Ronald McKernan of The Grateful Dead, Gary Thain of Uriah Heep, Kurt Cobain and Amy Winehouse. It really is astonishing. Erik Segalstad and Josh Hunter wrote a book about it all, called
The 27s: The Greatest Myth of Rock & Roll.
I’ve sent your post to a couple of folks I know who are in screenwriting. I’ll be interested to see if they know about it.
I did not know about the 27’s. Very sobering fact. I’ll mention it to my husband who may be aware of it. He knows so many facts about film and rock music. Numbers and formulas have always fascinated me.
I almost did not post this, thinking “Who am I to just confirm what I think ALL real screenwriters already know?” Truly this is a discovery for this naive neophyte. But then, there was the fact that these works are so easily accessible on the internet. The possibility that some folks may just seek another alternative to novels, not replacement, of course. We all have to agree that in the majority of cases “The book was better than the movie.” And then I thought, analysis is good. Why not put out what little analysis I did and found to fit the formula? So much is out on the internet and I just wanted to see if it aligned with the “rule” many were espousing. I think I will follow up on Thursday with other screenplays I found that adhere to the formula of p. 17. Perhaps in this personal quest, I will find something else.
I also, found that screenwriters will agree you have to know the end. hmmm…that seems obvious but how one gets there may be illuminated by the journey.
Ah…. GWTW….what a treasure. And You’ve Got Mail is one of my favorites too! This was interesting to learn, Georgettte!
I felt like Nancy Drew checking out these and other finds. It was interesting, Dianna. There they were at the click of a mouse and the p. 17 premise played out time after time.
How fascinating, Georgette! What a helpful discovery…a great way to test one’s manu/script. I can believe you felt like Nancy Drew!
I once researched a script for a movie I’d never seen. The detail! I decided to download the movie to see how closely the script was followed. Almost to the letter. I was floored. I could not be a script writer, or a director, because I would not enjoy worrying about blocking, props, fashion, etc, etc.
I have seen what scriptwriters sacrifice for their gift of well crafted words, not to mention the structure of the work. I think where $ is involved, it has to be a jungle out there. Still, I enjoyed reading how they deftly moved the action by scene, dialog and direction.
Amy, I ‘m not sure it’s helpful since I found the page 17 rule is out there multiple times. I only investigated if it’s veritable in these scripts and in others that I did not mention but will probably continue to comment on Thursday.
As much as I enjoyed this, I’m preparing a unit on the Grameen Bank — very frivolous of me to go off in this direction, perhaps.
The only plays I’ve read have been for school or college – English Literature – and the only ones I can remember having read (off hand) were Macbeth and Androcles and the Lion! I’d think by page 17 of the first the plot would be well defined and as for the latter it’s such a short play that the defining moments would probably be earlier. But who can tell without looking?
I’m just reading a novel, my second in the past couple of weeks and both of them the first novels I’ve read in absolute ages. I’m enjoying the current one ‘When God was a Rabbit’ by Sarah Winman. Very unusual and touching – and humorous – book.
I have to love a novel, like pick it up and be lost for two days reading it straight through. If I read it for weeks, oh gosh, it’s a chore but I slog on to the finish. I will have to look for your book by SW and see if it’s in our local library. It’s nice to read “a friendly” book.
Oh I hate novels that drag on for weeks. I started this one just a couple of days ago but have had other things that needed doing so had to force myself to put it down!
It’s hard to close a good book. Sigh…
This was the first I’ve heard of this, Georgette. You always come up with the best stuff! Page 17, you say…Hmmm
I’d always heard screenwriting was formulaic, and when I found this bit of information, I wanted to investigate. It played out time after time. My only problem so far is understanding Harry Potter–only a true fan, like my niece or daughter could help me figure out the references on its p. 17…but I have a hunch it plays out, too. I can now understand why “The King’s Speech” won the Oscar for screenwriting. Its page 17 is brilliant!
Georgette, you are a regular sleuth! This is so fascinating. I had no idea about page 17, but you’ve piqued my interest and have already revealed some of my favorite films here. Thanks!
Monica, you are such a great writer. I’m glad I could share something you may follow up on. I love analysis and all these works and many others are out there to read, study and yes, analyze without having to use your Amazon card. (wink)
‘Save The Cat’ by Blake Snyder is an awesome book on writing screenplays. He suggests putting the ‘catalyst’ (the defining moment) on/about page 12 of a 110 page script – which would be just about page 17 of a 120 page script (he has lots of other fascinating tips and tricks, too). If you translate that into a 250 page novel, the life changing moment should occur just about the end of Chapter 1. Now that you’ve inspired me, I think I’m going to go read some screenplays (and/or watch a couple of movies) and see what happens on ‘page 17’. Thanks – great post!
Thank you for the reference and weighing in. I do enjoy the conversation. This horizontal reading of page 17 thing is an interesting trail to follow, and so is just a vertical reading from start to finish. They are fast reads.
A very enriching post my friend. I’ve seen 3 of them as movies and I thought they were amazing. Each unique and timeless. Unfortunately, I can’t sit long enough to read a novel. Too hyper. Have a blessed week.
I agree, IT. Sometimes I just want a quick read. You’re always on the go, try reading a screenplay sometime.
Georgette — this is so cool! I am so impressed that you spent your online time so wisely. What a treasure trove of page seventeens you’ve found. Thank you for sharing them with us. This post should be freshly pressed!
I’m familiar with that concept — the point of no return. However, I always thought it was a little later on (in a book or a movie). Page 17 sounds so early. I guess it makes sense, as it’s all part of setting the plot and hooking the reader/viewer. I’ll have to look around to see what I can find, too.
Time is the issue with screenwriting. Everything has to be more compressed, and every scene should advance the story. 17″ seems like just the right amount of time to hook an audience. I’m glad you’re going to go investigate, too. We the general public audience take it in, escape and are entertained. The idea of analyzing how a screenplay is built is appealing and not that far away.
Ooh..an interesting take for sure. There is a whole world of screenplay writing that I have never explored but you are making a fine case for it.
I’m glad this inspires.
fascinating!!! love ‘you’ve got mail,’ too…and no worries…I mainly read while I’m driving! hooked on audiobooks…
haha…they go fast too…faster than I read. I have to replay though… as my mind can wander. 🙂
I had no idea you could find screenplays on the Internet like that, Georgette. Now I have something else to occupy my time! And I need to look at page 17 of my screenplay and see what’s happening. Loved this post!
So cool, that you’ve written one! I’m in awe. I love analyzing them, but not so sure I could “build” one. Yes, just about anything you can find from Harry Potter to “The King’s Speech” is out there without needing your Amazon card. Amazingly very few are for purchase. Do check it out. I think I’ll post another sequel to this to share what else I have found.
Hey Georgette,
What an interesting post – thank you for doing all this research for us. I didn’t know anything about the page 17 of a script, and I didn’t know that one could look up page 17’s on the internet just with a click of your mouse!
I look forward to your sequel…
I remember it was you who recommended Iron Woman. Here’s the link if you want to check it out. 🙂
The screenplay I’d like to read would be Dead Poet’s Society. Maybe I’ll do it someday! Thank you for letting know how it can be done, Georgette!
It’s there. I just found it! I almost sent you the link but then decided that would take away from the quest. First step, find the play. Second step, locate p. 17, and then finally analyze what’s there. Have fun and let me know what you find. 🙂 Reading a novel may be hard with baby. I remember how days would just fly by when the girls were small and I’d wonder when do I get to read? Well, I will say screenplays take less time than a novel.
I read the post after this one first. As a result, I clicked on the reference link in that post and read this one. Georgette, this was really interesting. As if I need something else to distract me on the internet, I can totally see myself searching for the movies I enjoyed. Really enjoyed this post!
There is room for sleuthing here. Glad you enjoyed it. 🙂